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Magnapocryphe
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Re: Population

Fri 22 Feb 2019, 17:31

 Hello!

Form here, I count one hex as 15km wide. I've chosen this because one day of normal travel is two hexes on the map, and about 30km walk in reality (4 or 5 km/h).
So I consider one hex as being 15 km wide.
Then the Ravenland measure about 500km x 400 km. Few less than 200 000 km² to me (I have to substract montains and so on).

I think that population is quite unbalanced today then.

About Humans.
1- Harga as been more and more destoyed as it assumed many wars (four actually), and demons flood. There must have been some mid size cities, but the only big one is Alderstone that have been partially destroyed with 4th Alder war and demons flood. But it is still peopled with misgrowns and Rust Brothers since about 880. Then it may have been rebuilt partially since that times.
2- Moldena was quite prevented from war. It was first people by ailanders in 610. Then it was dominated by alderlanders in 845, without any real fight. In two centuries cities were build, Falender dominated them, and in 845 none were destoyed. When the Wailer's Hold fell, Alderlander came to north more violently, and Falender fell in 869. It didn't fell in a war, it fell because of alderlanders criminals burnt it for revenge. Then other big cities may exist.
3- Margelda has really been prevented from the war, and as it is all coast long, it may have one big city, for people had 300 years to build one : from 610 to 900 AS.

BUT.
There is always a but.
In 900, here we go for 260 year of isolation. REAL isolation.
People went away from home by one hex maximum (it is said that they never left ther home more than half a day of travel, and one hex is half a day of travel).
Then they wasn't able to go in another village.
That is our biggest problem : we can't really see the Ravenland as we see our european history. Our small villages of 50 or 100 people weren't isolated. And they had many exchange with each others. They were spread with one or two days of travel between them, and many people went from one to another.
But Ravenland was invaded with the Blood Mist, and people were stucked in there village. 300 years is a long time for human beings.

Here is my understanding of this :
Many small villages are now dead. To few people, no real social and génétic diversity made them to die or become so much altered that they couldn't last for almost 300 years.
Form me, many small village are now ruins, abandonned, or contained really really few sane people.
But I can't see why there could not remain some average cities.
Humans came at a medieval technologic level. Then they had 300 years (from Jamharda to the 1st war) to establish theirselves. In our 14th century Lille, a big french city that is near of Paris, contained about 20 000 people. It is the result of many centuries of population and trade. But I have no problem to consider that their were be cities with 10 000 inhabitants before the Blood Mist came.

I've chosen Lille purposely. First, because I'm french. Secondly, because it is near a capital. If I consider Falender as a capital, then It doesn't forbid some other big cities to exist away from it in Moldena or Margelda.

These cities may now have less people, for the blood mist may have butchered many people: nobody was able to explain the threat to other village or cities, because it was too far. Then each settlement had to figure it out by itself, and it may have been... deadly.

Then, to me, there can remain some three or four cities with about 4 to 7 000 human inhabitants. Around many villages are in ruins, dead or abandonned because they were to few people in there. Some other villages may have been quite able to survive, but they may have had hard times during the past 300 years. The hollows are among them, but i consider that there are more than 100 people in there. Maybe 200 hundred today and they arrived 300 or 400 in 900AS.

In fact, it's hard to consider that a population with less than 300 people may have grown by its own during 300 years. Especially with a threat such as the Blood mist. It's my point of view, but there were not a doctor in each village. Only one disease could have killed every people regarding the level of healing (except with magic, but it seems to be hard to learn by your own in Ravenland).

Then, in human land, there are few villages. Many are small, or small average (up to 7000 people). There may be far from each others. And above all, they are independant from each others.
No general government. No ruler from outside the settlement. That is the fact that allows, to me, to not give those villages too many importance. Just there are more people, and they mays have better survived, but for now, they face their lonelyness against the wild land revealed from the Blood Mist.

About the non humans.
There must be big settlements of dwarves or elves. Indeed, war never went to their home except for hte Wailer's hold, Lumra, Glethra and Varassa. Belderand is clean, as is the northern forest, Vivend, Far Vivend.
But it's true that they may not be kind with so "warful" humans that brought the Mist on their land. Belderand is closed to non dwarves, elves haven't the same sight on cities like humans. Elven-springs are the remaining kin that can have created some big settlement. More recently, Urhur orc clan established in big elven ruin (Varassa?) to build an empire and gain repect from other kins. It can be a big settlement then.

I can't evaluate the size of the population in Ravenland... But I'm convinced that human are not so numerous... It even may be a chance for the other kins... to claim Ravenland as their! It's at least the case of Meromannians, and Urhur clans... at least.
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9littlebees
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Re: Population

Sat 23 Feb 2019, 18:32

Well, you can of course change whatever you want, but the book says the hexes are 10km wide (p143 of the Player's Handbook). 

As for the villages... I'd say you just need to roll with the setting and accept some things as not being "realistic". It's a fantasy setting, after all, and you can create any reason you want for things to be the way they are. It doesn't have to follow the European medieval model of geography, because it's not on our world at all.
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Magnapocryphe
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Re: Population

Sun 24 Feb 2019, 09:35

Yep, i thought that i would offend some with such a change... But it's hard to me to manage Ravenland as such a small Land... :-/

I don't look such for a realistic setting, but i look for a coherence i feel i Can manage ^^'
I mean, survival stay something about we need to understand. And i don't feel okay with thinking that fifty people settled before the Mist and survives 300 years while growing population. I mean, the rules of thé game are really hard, then it's to say that the Ravenland World is at least as hard as ours...

Finally, i 've found that it is not such a big twist to thé Book, cause i didn't changé the World itself...
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9littlebees
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Re: Population

Sun 24 Feb 2019, 12:14

Well, nothing gets broken by changing the background. Make it so the blood mist only lasted a generation. That would have been enough to decimate the population (think of the Black Death in Europe). The setting should be seen as a toolkit, and changing details like this shouldn't really break the game or setting, IMO.
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Rasmus
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Re: Population

Sun 24 Feb 2019, 14:36

I don't look such for a realistic setting, but i look for a coherence i feel i Can manage
Personally I see this as a creative challenge. For me creativity works best with restrictions, and I use the setting as it is portrayed in the books as my restrictions. If i feel that something isn’t coherent enough at first glance, I put my mind to it and try to find ways to explain it without altering the prerequisits of the ”published” setting. Often this brings me to new, fun and sometimes challenging conclusions, making the Forbidden Lands setting something unique. I feel (personally) that the alternative approach might make Forbidden Lands more generic and similar to other fantasy settings that I’ve game mastered. Hence, my personal decision to keep the population and the settlements small - and places like Amber’s Peek, Eye of the Rose, Haggler’s House the power centers of the land. This forces me to tell different stories than I usually do (large settlement gives you more leeway as a GM, as some have already pointed out). I jumped with joy when one of my players actually commented on this and said something like ”this has a very unique feeling to it, a world that feels strangely familiar and different at the same time. Like looking at a world we know through a distorted lens”. Im not a hundred percent sure what he meant by it, by I take it as something good :)

Again, there's no right or wrong here, just my personal approach.
 
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The1TrueFredrix
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Re: Population

Mon 25 Feb 2019, 11:16

...And i don't feel okay with thinking that fifty people settled before the Mist and survives 300 years while growing population. I mean, the rules of thé game are really hard, then it's to say that the Ravenland World is at least as hard as ours...
It’s imterestimg to note that, according to the random village creation rules, most villages were founded DURING the blood mist. The implication is that the demons etc really was an apocalypse...
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Magnapocryphe
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Re: Population

Tue 26 Feb 2019, 16:28

Rasmus:
Yep,  totally agree!
In fact, it is the reason why I share my thoughts ;) I try to get those of other GM, in order to get mine stronger.
and you gave me your best argument in the topic about food and animals ^^
I don't need no more to have huge citie among the land.

It was pretty hard to grow enough food for all the population, then the populations grew thiner during the mist. That's okay! 400 people is a maximum level now.

I keep the idea that population couldn't grew during the mist. Diseases, hard times, isolation, insanity, many reasons for settlement to loose people rather than developping.

I'm also about to change my mind about the size of the map. In fact, I never gave any size scale to my players. I only gave them a time scale : 2 hex = 1 day travel. That's all. and nobody asked for more. And whatever the scale of the hexes, it doesn't change anything. Then It was a pretty bad idea I think.

I think I'l keep an average port city in Margelda, with about 3000 inhabitants, cause it's easier to survive by the sea : no mist. I'm wondering about this city being abnadonned durng the mist instead, and all the people went out on an island to the east about 5 days travel (by boat), to flee the mist... and someone come back to check how is the land every ten years.
More interesting...

Thee1truefredrix:
Yep, I don't remember where but I told here that I truly consider that it is an apocalyptic world, for two reasons. It seems to be one! And the Y0 mechanics is a post apocalyptic one. ^^

Then to me, sttelement created during the mist were only at its beginning (about the 30 first years). I can't figure how a village could have been founded in 1050, since people couldn't travel without being butchered.

About that, Elves and dwarves were not immune to the mist themselves I think. It is told that the Mist could reach the underground nor the northern forets... I interprete that as the elves felt no fear in the forest, it is their home, as the dwarves underground. For the same reason why the Wolfkin were not immune in plains, but were in forest. I think that a dwarf roaming on the Harga plains in the mist would have been butchered as anyone else (moreover because of their unsafety feelling with no roof upon their head), and as well for elves (that could be discussed since they are the Warden of the land - as they say - and they may feel no fear anywhere, cause they are home everywhere... but since the rust brothers burnt Varassa, is it true yet?
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Arnold
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Re: Population

Tue 26 Feb 2019, 17:44

Sorry, you can do it as you want, 

but the rules say, that you can travel 2 hexfields per quarter day, not per day. And you can travel 2 quarter days without trouble, and when you make a success on endurance threee quarter days. 
 
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Magnapocryphe
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Re: Population

Wed 27 Feb 2019, 12:12

RIght!
It's my mistake! ;-)

Indeed I find that 40km/day is a bit quick! and makes the map short...

In addition, it gives really few villages because they must be at least 3hexes distant in that case...
During the mist, villages were isolated, and people never went more than half a day travel from their village. That is then 2 hexes. The next villlage has to be at least 3 hexes away, in open terrain.
And this is for a foot traveller. If we consider a mounted traveller, it's further.
If not, the villages weren't isolated, and trade could continue.

In Belifar for example, it gives a maximum of 4 halflings villages... then a maximum of 1600 halflings in Belifar, that is their homeland.
It seems to be quite few.

With 2hexes/Quarter all the adventures sites represent almost the total amount of villages and settlement (because I assume that a hidden dungeon or castle wasn't near a village, but mostly isolated too, otherwies rust brothers or other crazy would already have discovered it during the mist, and came back to his home).

Then I tend to move the rule to a 1 Hex /Quarter. I'm not decided yet... any arguments (pro or con). :-)
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