Roger Eberhart
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon 25 Sep 2017, 20:02

### multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

If multiple players or NPC's have this talent, who draws first? The rules as written seem to assume only one person having this talent.

Eldhierta
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu 19 Feb 2015, 10:39

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

Doesn't really matter. I think the main reason for them being allowed to draw cards before those without the talent is to make sure that there are enough initiative cards to choose from. If you want to determine an order, just let them roll one D6 each, highest result gets to draw first.

Tomas
Posts: 4348
Joined: Fri 08 Apr 2011, 11:31

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

Roger Eberhart wrote:
If multiple players or NPC's have this talent, who draws first? The rules as written seem to assume only one person having this talent.

If several people have the talent, let all of them draw their (two) cards (each) first. Then return the discarded cards, reshuffle, and let the others draw.
Fria Ligan

cdj0902
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue 08 Jan 2019, 08:52

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

Additional question: what if you have multiple PCs with multiple ranks in this talent, such that they would all be drawing more cards than the 10 available? Example: 3 players with a PC at Rank 3 in Lightning Fast would need to draw 12 cards. If they all draw "at the same time" this corner case is impossible to satisfy with the 10 card initiative deck.

Really this is a question about rule intent in regards to initiative card draw order: was it intended that a player whose PC has this talent actually draw before any other player (with an expectation that in most groups only 1 or 2 players would actually select this talent), or is the "and shuffle the other one back into the deck before others draw their cards" verbiage simply meant to convey that regardless of the player draw order (which is not specified in the rules explicitly) any player with this talent simply needs to return their cards to the draw deck before another player would draw one or more initiative card(s)?

andarp
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat 24 Mar 2018, 15:32

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

Could someone explain to me why draw order matters? In the single draw case it obviously doesn't, but I feel like the same rule applies to the multi-draw case. I could very well be wrong, since statistics rarely match the intuitive explanation...

lupex
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:16

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

andarp wrote:
Could someone explain to me why draw order matters? In the single draw case it obviously doesn't, but I feel like the same rule applies to the multi-draw case. I could very well be wrong, since statistics rarely match the intuitive explanation...

In this case draw order matters as the relevent player would get to pick one of two initiative slots and as they were drawing first would have the potential of drawing any of the cards, if someone else draws first the chance of drawing low number cards potentially decreases.

lupex
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:16

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

cdj0902 wrote:
Additional question: what if you have multiple PCs with multiple ranks in this talent, such that they would all be drawing more cards than the 10 available? Example: 3 players with a PC at Rank 3 in Lightning Fast would need to draw 12 cards. If they all draw "at the same time" this corner case is impossible to satisfy with the 10 card initiative deck.

Really this is a question about rule intent in regards to initiative card draw order: was it intended that a player whose PC has this talent actually draw before any other player (with an expectation that in most groups only 1 or 2 players would actually select this talent), or is the "and shuffle the other one back into the deck before others draw their cards" verbiage simply meant to convey that regardless of the player draw order (which is not specified in the rules explicitly) any player with this talent simply needs to return their cards to the draw deck before another player would draw one or more initiative card(s)?

You may be over thinking this as the scenario above is quite unlikely but can be handled with some common sense.

If it were me I would maybe get each player to draw a single card, this would then dictate what order they activate their talent in, immediately shuffle all cards back in the deck.

The first person would draw three cards, keeping one and shuffle back in the discarded cards, then the next person and so on before anyone without the talent draws a card.

If there are multiple characters with different ranks in this talent I would allow rank 3 to draw first, then rank 2 etc.

andarp
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat 24 Mar 2018, 15:32

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

lupex wrote:
andarp wrote:
Could someone explain to me why draw order matters? In the single draw case it obviously doesn't, but I feel like the same rule applies to the multi-draw case. I could very well be wrong, since statistics rarely match the intuitive explanation...

In this case draw order matters as the relevent player would get to pick one of two initiative slots and as they were drawing first would have the potential of drawing any of the cards, if someone else draws first the chance of drawing low number cards potentially decreases.

Right, the initiative deck becomes "watered down" the more players with multi-draw draw from it. Makes sense.

I guess the only case this matters is the edge case where multiple drawers have multi-draw of the same level and the total sum of their draws exceed ten. In that case I would just randomize their draw order and reshuffle after each draw.

cdj0902
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue 08 Jan 2019, 08:52

### Re: multiple PC/NPC's with Lightning Fast talent

I may well be overthinking it. The fact remains that the rules do not address this scenario, which is quite plausible. The rarity of this occurrence matters not: it's a valid scenario that could happen at any table. That is why I asked about the intent of the rules regarding draw order (in that draw order is never explicitly addressed in the rules at all).

I'm fine with solving rules ambiguity with common sense, as this could be solved any number of ways (why limit the initiative deck to 10 cards, for example) but in cases like this it is usually helpful to know what the rule designers intent was when the wording is either open to interpretation or simply missing, especially for corner cases. The simple answer could be "we just didn't consider this scenario when designing the game", which is fine and can be house-ruled around.

Tomas