Manticore
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Questions about Willpower Points

Wed 17 Oct 2018, 16:28

Hello! First time posting. I'm a late backer (an "Ogre") of the Forbidden Lands RPG, and I've been reading the PDFs for the past few days now. I have a whole host of questions about the rules, mainly revolving around the Willpower Point mechanism. I'm not quite sure how to interpret it given the multitude of ways WPs can be spent through different kinds of talents. Some talents seem to reflect the character's superior ability (e.g. Path of the Blade) while others seem to provide the player with narrative control over what has already happened in the world (e.g. Path of Poison; the player gets to decide that the Rogue had some poison prepared beforehand). And then there are the spells, of course, which are powered by WPs.

So, in some circumstances, WPs are about the character's inner drive to excel, while in other cases it's about giving the player the option to steer the narrative in some way that makes the character look cool, clever, powerful or whatever. I can't quite wrap my head around why or how a resource with an in-world logic is mixed up with a meta-level currency.

The Transfer spell makes things even more puzzling. Suppose a Sorcerer grants WPs to a Rogue who then spends them to pull out a vial of Poison from his sleeve. Is there supposed to be an in-world explanation for this? Of course, the GM shouldn't allow the system to be abused, but would this kind of a combo be in the spirit of the game or not?

I have a few other questions about WPs, which I'll just list here:

1. What happens if an NPC uses Transfer on another NPC? Does this just reduce the GM's pool of WPs by one?

2. What happens if an NPC uses Fulgaris (The Spire of Quetzel, page 63)?

3. Do magic users know that, in order to cast spells, they must first over-exert themselves somehow?

4. If the adventurers have at least some life experience behind them before the first session (the Dark Secret or old age, for example), why does the WP pool always start at 0?

That's what I have on my mind right now. I'd like to hear from anyone who's a real fan of this game how they approach WPs.

(Hopefully this is the right subforum for these ponderings.)
 
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The1TrueFredrix
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Re: Questions about Willpower Points

Wed 17 Oct 2018, 22:53

Think of Willpower points as a narrative tool, not an in-universe fuel for magic etc. 
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AndersP
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Re: Questions about Willpower Points

Thu 18 Oct 2018, 09:58

As mentioned above, WP should be used as a way to affect the story. It is not a mana pool like other RPG use. The magic user changes the world by magic, the rouge by adding poison to its blade earlier in the story without anyone noticing (not even the biggest god of them all - the GM!). 

1. What happens if an NPC uses Transfer on another NPC? Does this just reduce the GM's pool of WPs by one?
Since the GM has a pool of willpower equal to the sum of all the PC:s willpower to be used by all NPC, the GM has no point in using Transfer between NPC:s. As I see it is a way to balance the PC:s abilities.

However, despite this I will probably sometimes decide before a battle how much WP each important NPC have (if any), and then Transfer would be used to transfer WP between NPC the same way PC uses it.

2. What happens if an NPC uses Fulgaris (The Spire of Quetzel, page 63)?

Either it will be one heck ofa spell if the GM have a large pool of WP, or the GM may decide how much WP that certain NPC hade before he/she used Fulgaris.

3. Do magic users know that, in order to cast spells, they must first over-exert themselves somehow?

During their education it will probably be a part of the training to over-exert themselves since magic users will have learnt that this is the way to gain the mental power to use magic.

4. If the adventurers have at least some life experience behind them before the first session (the Dark Secret or old age, for example), why does the WP pool always start at 0?

An easy way to explain this is that they have spent any WP they had before the adventures start.
 
LupNi
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Re: Questions about Willpower Points

Mon 22 Oct 2018, 16:47

I think you're overthinking it. You should totally separate player knowledge from character knowledge here, and just treat WP as a metacurrency.
1. NPCs don't use Transfer, because the GM has a common WP pool for them all. If you really want to tie this in the narrative, have NPCs use Transfer just as fluff without mechanical effect.
2. Well that depends on the GM's pool... But as a GM I wouldn't have any NPC use this kind of item as written. I would simply give them a flat bonus for owning the item or have them use the power in the narration, without referring to the rules.
3. Do magic users know they need to exert themselves? That's up to you. But the players know, and should be allowed to exploit this rule.
4. WP starts at zero because it's an abstract metacurrency and the rules say so. No explication needed. Why do you start with X $ in Monopoly or 0 XP in DnD? It's just rules for the sake of balance.
 
Manticore
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Re: Questions about Willpower Points

Tue 23 Oct 2018, 20:02

Thanks for your responses. I suppose treating WPs as a purely narrative currency throughout the system is the closest thing to a consistent interpretation of the game's design intent. (So why are they called "Willpower Points" instead of "Story Points" or "Drama Points" or something? I wish the Gamemaster's Guide had a whole chapter on the topic.)

With that out of the way, let me respond with a selection of my own thoughts.

A. I am frankly baffled by the suggestion that NPCs don't use or don't need the Transfer spell. Suppose the PCs acquire an ally, an NPC, and the adventurers encounter an evil sorcerer who wishes to draw power from the party members. The NPC ally happens to be the target. In terms of the story outside of game mechanisms, the party's overall power should be decreased and the villain should gain some sort of advantage thereby. Rules as written break down here.

The obvious fix is for the GM to allocate some of the WPs to the ally and some to the enemy. I find it curious that the rules do not recommend this kind of approach for important NPCs.

B. As a GM, I would absolutely want to have the option to let NPC magic users cast whatever spells make narrative sense, even if just to create a scene for the players/adventurers to observe from a safe distance. For me, "fluff" is one of the main ingredients of roleplaying. The idea that Transfer (or indeed other spells and talents) could be handled without paying any WPs when it does not heplp or hinder the PCs probably works in practice most of the time.

C. What does Transfer do, anyway? In a purely "fluffy" sense, that is. Assuming that WPs are just for influencing the story, the magic user casting the spell has no idea about them. As I wrote in my original post, the weird interactions that this spell causes (the thing about the Rogue and the poison) undermine any explanation within my powers of imagination and hand-waving. Its a major roadblock for me.

D. I detect what could only be called cognitive dissonance between how the game is portrayed in the marketing material and the design of the game system (viz. Willpower Points). And this is purely based on my reading the PDFs before any experience with how it plays on the table. On one hand, I am promised a sandbox: set your own goals, roam on the hex map, explore places, fight to survive, raise your reputation through your exploits, bring home some loot to build your own stronghold etc. You are free. All of that sounds great! But on the other hand, I must obey the laws of these Willpower Points.

In many instances, the talents I can spend WPs on function like getting an automatic success on a skill check or something similar. Nice! But what if I want to try my hand at the skill when I'm out of WPs? A sympathetic GM can work something out, but the system does not support this type of freedom. Where's the Sorcery skill? Why can't a Peddler following the Path of Many Things roll a resource dice to get a random item out of his overflowing knapsack? And so on, you get the picture.

To conclude, Forbidden Lands looks, sounds and smells like a simulation of adventure driven by unrestrained player choice, but under the hood, it is (what some people call) a story game. To be plain, the system is there to ensure that the stories generated through play satisfy certain pre-determined criteria. The characters are supposed to go through cycles of strife and stylish stunts, not because the in-game reality works that way but because those kinds of tales are (supposedly) more exciting than realistic ones. Am I close to the mark?

I confess I have a preference (or prejudice?) to play a simulationist adventure over a narrativist one. But I'm open to new experiences. I'm just not won over by what I see on the page.

Let that suffice, and thanks once more if you bothered to read it.
 
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The1TrueFredrix
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Re: Questions about Willpower Points

Tue 23 Oct 2018, 23:41

OK, given that every table is different, and if everyone is having fun, no-one is doing it it wrong, here are my responses to your concerns:

A. I won’t ever allocate WP to a NPC ally, because they are not a protagonist of the story. They won’t be casting spells, or doing anything, unless a PC instructs them too, and in such a case I will probably not use my GM pool of WP because that is for antagonists. I will rule the first couple of times that the spell has some effect, and then if the players are taking the piss, using the NPC as a spell cannon, I will say s/he is out of WP. But I don’t have either time, nor care, to bother tracking NPC ally WP.

B. I agree, though as I said above I only use my pool WP to “hinder” PCs spells that help come free. Case in point: in part two of the Hollows adventure that we released in The Coriolis Effect presents Ravenland Tales, two PCs visited a Raven Sister who magically treated their injuries. I did not track WP. 

C. It drains a person’s willpower and powers up another person.  I am sorry, but I don’t share the cognitive dissonance that you obviously have about a thing that is really a meta currency having a sheen of in-game pseudo-physics added to it. 

D. Again I don’t share your issue here. Yes you “must obey” the laws of WP (though actually you need not, house rules are not forbidden), just as you need a six to succeed. The real issue is that in the literature that inspires these games, magic literally breaks the laws of physics - it doesn’t obey any rules and is limited only by the imagination of the author. In literature where everyone is a magic user, that doesn’t matter much (though don’t get me started on Harry Potter) and games where everyone is a magic user can build a more “realistic” set of rules for magic. But in games (and books) where some people can make miracles happen, and others just hit each other with a slab of iron, it’s tough making sure everyone has as much fun (see Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit 
In books, the magic user usually just disappears off to let the iron-slab hitters do some stuff for a while, but in games, everybody needs to get their share of being cool. Every game kludges the issue, but I think this is an OK kludge, if not a simulationist as you might prefer. 

Fria Ligan’s stated philosophy is to make “Neo-traditional” games that marry a bit of old school crunch with modern narrativism. They so so very well, as far as my needs are concerned, but you are of course free to disagree  :)
Effekt - A fan podcast celebrating Swedish RPGs including, but not limited to: Alien; Coriolis; Forbidden Lands; Symbaroum; and Tales from the Loop. Featuring discussion magazine episodes and Actual Play recordings. https://effektpodcast.org/

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