Rasmus
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Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Mon 24 Sep 2018, 23:33

We're just getting started and I'm exited to see how the combat system plays out.

One thing I particularly like is the WP system. The fact that you have to spend a WP to achieve special effects takes away much of the boring repetivness found in many other combat systems – where players are tempted to do the same special killer move over and over again.

Combat oriented general talents don’t use up WPs though. This got me a little bit worried until I saw that more often than not you have to spend a fast action to get that extra attack or whatever. I really like this.

That said, there are three general talents that gives me pause. And I’m curious to hear what people think.

Axe Fighter lvl2
Anyone with experience how this talent affects game play? A talent that dashes out critical injuries like punctured lungs and severed legs seem extremely gritty, and scary from a roleplaying perspective. Feet, legs, arms and heads will roll, guts will be spilled. Yes, the talent description states that “The critical injury itself doesn’t break your opponent – unless it kills him of course ” – Still, I’ll have a hard time convincing anyone that a guy with a severed foot will fight on. (Unless of course he’s that armless, legless knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail that yells “Ill bite your legs of”)

Sword Fighter lvl2
Again, I’m wondering if anyone has experience how this talent affects game play and especially player behaviour. This is one of the few (the only?) general talent that grants an extra attack without the cost of a fast action. Call it bad roleplaying or whatnot, but I know that the guy with SF lvl2 will constantly try to position himself in a way so that he gets that extra free attack  - which could create exiting combat situations, or that boring repetivness that I don’t see in the rest of the system. Thoughts and/or experiences?

Fast Shooter lvl2
Since level 1 lets you SHOOT without performing a PREPARE fast action, what does level 2 do? What’s stopping a player with level 1 to use his fast action to run and his slow action to shoot? Is there something in the rules besides PREPARE that prohibits an archer from running and shooting (and other such shenanigans)
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Tue 25 Sep 2018, 00:01

We haven't played yet with Axe Fighter or Sword Fighter so I don't know how that will affect play. But this is a tactical game, so if the enemies learn that they are dealing with a Sword Fighter they will probably spread out. If they are dealing with an Axe Fighter, then the character that can defend themselves best and/or have the best armour will try to position himself against him perhaps try to disarm him. When the players (or the NPCs) have talents like this, all participants needs to be a little more tactical. Good advise "better flee today so you live and can flee another day".

One of my players played archer when we played with the Beta-rules. Rank 1 allows you to prepare for free (i.e. you draw an new arrow as a free action). How we used the Rank 2 ability (it may be wrong) is that the archer is allowed to move and shoot as one action (slow action). Rank 3 allows you to shoot as a fast action.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Rasmus
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Re: Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Tue 25 Sep 2018, 00:54

Good advise "better flee today so you live and can flee another day".
It took me almost two years of M:Y0 to teach my players this :) That's why we're two sessions in without combat (or one and a half, since the first consisted mostly of character creation).

When the players (or the NPCs) have talents like this, all participants needs to be a little more tactical.
Agreed. Tactical is fun, I just dislike repetivness. That's why I think one of the key strengths with the system is that you can get up to 3 extra dice by making sure that you have a clear advantage (or loose up to 3 when you're at a clear disadvantage). Three extra dice goes a long way. This motivates the players to constantly try to fight on their terms. Terms that are situational, so that every fight becomes unique. Higher ground might be the key factor in one fight, having the sun at your back in another. 

I'll give Sword fighter some extra thought before deciding whether or not I want to try some kind of houserule. The rest of the combat oriented general talents (ambidextrous, brawler, knife fighter, shield fighter) all grant that possible extra attack as a fast action. 
 
Rasmus
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Re: Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Tue 25 Sep 2018, 10:22

One of my players played archer when we played with the Beta-rules. Rank 1 allows you to prepare for free (i.e. you draw an new arrow as a free action). How we used the Rank 2 ability (it may be wrong) is that the archer is allowed to move and shoot as one action (slow action). Rank 3 allows you to shoot as a fast action.
Ah, makes sense. Then your run (fast action) and shoot (slow) with lvl 1. You run (fast) and run again+shoot (slow) with lvl 2. And you shoot (fast) and shoot+run (slow) with lvl 3. In any order. Of course you could aim or duck or do other things than running with your fast action on lvl 1+2, but I have a feeling that this talent first and foremost makes the archer very mobile. Thats fine, I just really liked the restrictions to mobility that comes with the PREPARE action. Having my archers stay put until lvl 2 would have been nice (player characters and NPCs). :) Especially in a game where an arrow isn't something you laugh at, it seems easy to take out any hardened warrior at a distance. The trade-off being you have to stay put, which gives the opponents time to advance. The rules don't specify any negative modifiers for running and shooting, but I could of course always enforce a difficulty modifier for moving around while shooting to achieve something more close to my liking. Treating it the same way I would handle shooting from an unstable platform or during a storm.

Out of curiocity, how did it play out for you? A lot of running and shooting?
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Tue 25 Sep 2018, 11:07

The archer managed to stay out of close combat much easier.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
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Rymdhamster
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Re: Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Tue 25 Sep 2018, 14:10

but I know that the guy with SF lvl2 will constantly try to position himself in a way so that he gets that extra free attack
Remeber that if you are possitioned to hit two different persons, that means there are two persons positioned so that they can hit you.
Having to defent against two persons is a good way to burn through all your actions dodging and parying, or to just get masacered because you've "wasted" your actions attacking.
For archers, make sure to keep track of range and terrain. You cant keep shoting if you end up behind even a small hill, or if there is to much forest and foilage between you and your target.
Ín theory, there should be plenty of isntances were you would not want to use these abilities. But I'm working on getting swordfighter for my thief, so I'll let you know how that turns out =D
 
Rasmus
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Re: Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Tue 25 Sep 2018, 15:32

Remeber that if you are possitioned to hit two different persons, that means there are two persons positioned so that they can hit you.
That's very true, and I'll probably stress this a bit more than might be intended by the rules. For instance, I'll probably stress that companions fighting right beside you tend to get in the way, which would hinder the use of a rank 2 sword fighter slash. If you're outnumbered two to one, then by all means slash away!

Remember, I'm not looking to downgrade the talent, I just want to avoid lazy repetivness with no trade-offs: "I'll slash my opponent... and yeah, Ill slash the one my friend is fighting too since its free".

If players cooperate to capitalize on a sword fighters slash - by aiding each other or staying clear, then thats cool (tactical) roleplaying.
For archers, make sure to keep track of range and terrain. You cant keep shoting if you end up behind even a small hill, or if there is to much forest and foilage between you and your target.
Absolutely. Im just not a huge fan of the idea that an archer can be pursued by a bunch of opponents, and then pick them off one by one while he's running away. That I'll probably solve by not letting anyone lobb shots over their shoulder.

I'm a little worried that fast shooter sort of becomes a no-brainer for archers, for just 3 experience points you get to attack people at a distance, with little risk of retaliation. For 6 xp more, your're spending two running actions every turn making it very hard for anyone to get at you - in a game where one hit kills are a thing. Again. I'm not looking to downgrade the talent. I just want to make sure that fast shooter won't create that boring repetivness where archers behave the same way every fight because its the optimal and risk free thing to do. In a game full of caves and castles, where its harder to run freely, this might be overly cautious of me. I just don't want to regret down the line that I let this one go unchecked. Also, I don't think my players would appreciate fighting a bunch of goblins with rank 1 fast shooter - even though that could be darkly amusing. :)
 But I'm working on getting swordfighter for my thief, so I'll let you know how that turns out =D
Please do :)
 
Rasmus
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Re: Axe Fighter, Sword Fighter, Fast Shooter lvl2

Wed 26 Sep 2018, 09:42

Quick update.

After a closer inspection of range categories, I'm happy with Sword Fighter, rank 2, as it is. The guy(s) you're fighting are at "arms length" and the one your companion is fighting is concidered to be "near". At least thats my interpretation. This would allow the sword fighter to slash two enemies with one action if he's outnumbered, but It wouldn't allow him to "bonus-slash" the guy fighting his friend next to him.

When it comes to Fast Shooter I'm probably going to try out a houserule and rewrite the talent so that it's more similar to Ambidextrous. Something like this:
Rank 1: You don't need to PREPARE before you SHOOT with a ranged weapon. The attack is modified by -2.
Rank 2: You only need to spend a fast action to SHOOT with a ranged weapon, meaning you can SHOOT twice in a round. 
Rank 3: Same as per rank 2, but your shots are no longer modified by -2.

This would make the talent more about fast shooting and less about running around, which is my ambition.

I'll leave the Axe Fighter rank 2 as it is. Its so darn gritty that I just can't help grinning a little. Lets see how it plays out.

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