• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
 
User avatar
Eldhierta
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu 19 Feb 2015, 10:39

Re: The problem with Magic

Sat 10 Feb 2018, 21:36

Fragpuss wrote:
Eldhierta wrote:
Fragpuss wrote:
+1
For me a deterministic method of generating WP would be better (and fairer?). Ultimately, I can live with linking it to dice roll outcomes, just - but having it coupled to Misery simply doesn't sit right. It seems too much like Bruce Banner having to get the **** beaten out of him before he changes into the Hulk (but only several hours later, when he decides he wants to?).
As I've said, I'm broadly happy with what I've heard about the ebb and flow of WP from the playtests, the numbers don't seem crazy, but I think the core concept is flawed. I hope it can be looked at again - it should be possible to achieve a similar effect in a more logical way.
I'm going to come down off my soapbox now and let this rest - I've had my say and ultimately, if I can't live with the final RAW, I can just pull on my house-ruling boots and go to work.


Well, how about if you change your view on what willpower is? Instead of a stat pool it's more like a charge, kind of like static. Trauma and misery compound this charge, building it up until you release it in spectacular fashion. So the ability to cast spells or perform spectacular feats is your reward for striving for greater things and suffering in the process.

If you wanna spice it up or increase the flow of WP, add a talent that allows your players to gain WP every time they are damaged in combat, not only from pushing rolls. Might wanna limit it to those WP only being available for a short time, so they have to be expended before fizzling. Could be fun for a character that get's more dangerous and volatile the closer (s)he is to death.

I could almost buy that for magic because hey, it's magic, or for certain combat talents, but why should trauma and misery make you better at disguising yourself or pulling poisons out of your backpack? A lot of the talents just aren't 'spectacular' in the way that you're describing. 
I just think it's back-to-front - straining yourself by casting a spell or activating a talent makes sense to me, but straining yourself the day before and then casting a spell later with no consequences doesn't. By losing that immediate link, it makes the whole thing too abstract for my taste. It makes it feel a bit video-gamey, you wander around powering up and then set off your smart-bomb during the boss battle. Talent first followed by a consequence feels more natural.


I see your point. How about, as a house rule, using talent causing strain and at 10 strain you are unable to use talents or magic at all. To cure strain you may use extra successes in pushed skill rolls, maybe as a stunt limited to one use per pushed roll? Just a thought.
 
User avatar
Klas
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun 04 Nov 2012, 19:17

Re: The problem with Magic

Sat 10 Feb 2018, 21:59

Although I can understand some of the negative reactions to reading the rules, in my experience as GM so far there is no problem with how WP is gained and spent. The rest looks like nitpicking to me. Sure, the system doesn't reward taking risks, it rewards taking misery. And that is, IMHO, one of its best features. My players have gotten themselves broken by this a couple of times and it has been excellent for narrative every single time. Please don't change this stuff.
 
Morgoth
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed 11 Oct 2017, 08:46

Re: The problem with Magic

Sat 10 Feb 2018, 22:03

I have a question regarding the Runemagic school; it states that the symbols can even be drawn in the air by the sorcerer, if so does this mean the spells can be used this way in combat, without needing a prebound item/chalk drawn rune (which cannot be done in combat) 
 
User avatar
Eldhierta
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu 19 Feb 2015, 10:39

Re: The problem with Magic

Sat 10 Feb 2018, 22:29

Morgoth wrote:
I have a question regarding the Runemagic school; it states that the symbols can even be drawn in the air by the sorcerer, if so does this mean the spells can be used this way in combat, without needing a prebound item/chalk drawn rune (which cannot be done in combat) 


As I understand it, yes.
 
User avatar
9littlebees
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat 18 Feb 2017, 14:22
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: The problem with Magic

Sat 10 Feb 2018, 22:30

Klas wrote:
Although I can understand some of the negative reactions to reading the rules, in my experience as GM so far there is no problem with how WP is gained and spent. The rest looks like nitpicking to me. Sure, the system doesn't reward taking risks, it rewards taking misery. And that is, IMHO, one of its best features. My players have gotten themselves broken by this a couple of times and it has been excellent for narrative every single time. Please don't change this stuff.

+1
Working on Nordsaga, a career-focused dark Viking game, powered by the Year Zero engine: https://tinyurl.com/nordsaga-forum
 
User avatar
Eldhierta
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu 19 Feb 2015, 10:39

Re: The problem with Magic

Sat 10 Feb 2018, 22:31

Klas wrote:
Although I can understand some of the negative reactions to reading the rules, in my experience as GM so far there is no problem with how WP is gained and spent. The rest looks like nitpicking to me. Sure, the system doesn't reward taking risks, it rewards taking misery. And that is, IMHO, one of its best features. My players have gotten themselves broken by this a couple of times and it has been excellent for narrative every single time. Please don't change this stuff.


I agree with you, not advocating a change, just throwing ideas around.
 
Oxcelot
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu 26 Apr 2018, 20:32

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 26 Apr 2018, 20:40

I've played a long campaign using Mutant Year Zero, and although the WP/MP system is well tested, I think Forbidden Lands has a problem that if did not show, it will be. In MYZ the MP fueling Mutations is awesome because every player has at least one Mutation, and in my campaign the players usually use their Mutations as last resort, or when they need to turn the tide in their favor. This leads to a gambling in getting "misery" (don't remember how we called in MYZ, it is quite a time) for using Mutations at a critical point.

The problem is that Forbidden Lands has some characters that their main ability is Magic. So it creates an unbalance where the casters are always nerfed and need to push rolls (risking their lives) to create a big effect. This is something like the old D&D, but worse, because although the magic is scarce and powerfull, mages could relie more on their peers for that critical moment (old times playing mages with 1 or 3 HP). In Forbidden Lands, mages necessarily need to take misery. This could lead to some problems worse than oldschool mages. The way "magic" works in Coriolis I think is better, but off course, adapting to Forbidden Lands.
 
User avatar
Fenhorn
Posts: 773
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Mariestad (Sverige, Tellus)

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 26 Apr 2018, 21:40

In my testsession, one of my players is a druid. He pushes mostly his survival and endurance skills. Not to get WP, but because he wants to succeed with the roll (it is important). He always has a lot of WP and also spends a lot. Most of the time he spends on his human talent (a really good talent and also entertaining to hear his explanations) but he cast spells every now and then too. None of my players have pushed a skill just because they need WP or risked their lives just to get WP. It comes naturally. Sometimes they do risk their lives of course but that's because they face something very dangerous or have no food and must succeed with hunting roll, not because they just want WP (even though that is a good bonus). Sure, the first characters we tested to play with was very unbalanced and that session didn't work well, but now the players know how to play and know what to do with their characters to get a good flow. I as a GM has also become better to give the players challenges based on what they characters play. So when the players feel they need to, risk their lives (and push some skills, all sorts of skills), they do it because they have to, not to get some points. It took a couple of sessions for me to.
"War, war never changes" - Lone Wanderer
 
User avatar
Klas
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun 04 Nov 2012, 19:17

Re: The problem with Magic

Mon 30 Apr 2018, 23:28

+1
My impression so far is that this game requires some wisdom in when to allow players to make rolls, because skill rolls can always be pressed. That in turn forces the GM to create situations where a call is actually called for. That's a new skill for me as GM, and I really like the effect it has on my thinking about content and narrative.
 
User avatar
King_Kull
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed 22 Feb 2017, 16:11

Re: The problem with Magic

Tue 01 May 2018, 10:24

Klas wrote:
+1
My impression so far is that this game requires some wisdom in when to allow players to make rolls, because skill rolls can always be pressed. That in turn forces the GM to create situations where a call is actually called for. That's a new skill for me as GM, and I really like the effect it has on my thinking about content and narrative.


Good advice! As a GM I know it from me that I will call for Perception checks for example very often. But that’s not wise for FL. Here every check has to count.
I am king!
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
GZIP: Off