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King_Kull
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 09:28

Fragpuss wrote:
Tomas wrote:
So. We know that the magic system in Forbidden Lands doesn't work the in way you are used to from other games. But that doesn't mean its broken - it's a result of very conscious design decisions. This doesn't mean it's perfect in every detail - feedback is welcome - but, again - we would ask you to actually try the system out before discarding it. :)


I don't think 'broken' is the word I would use. I completely agree with the effect that you want to achieve - a limited supply of WP that builds up during the course of a session and that makes magic and other powerful talents features of climactic encounters. Based on the few playtest reports that I've seen on here, it sounds like it's generating the sort of flow of points that you had in mind, so in that sense, it's clearly not broken.

My concern comes from the rationale behind linking WP and Misery and the need to sustain harm before you can power your talents - as I said in my earlier post, in my opinion, exhausting yourself to cast a spell makes sense, exhausting yourself through mundane activities in order to generate the power to cast a spell doesn't - I just find that mechanism too contrived.

If WP were generated for something positive that would make more sense to me - maybe decouple it from the banes / misery outcome and just give one (and only one) WP for pushing a roll (maybe even require at least n successes), so the WP come from inspiration /exerting yourself, but there is still the element of risk to stop people abusing the system and pushing every roll. Alternatively, you could have talents / spells cost attribute points directly, but there's no mechanism to increase attributes - so that might be too limiting.

TLDR? - I don't think the model is wrong, but I do think it isn't modelling the right system.


Good points! I will try to play a playtest round this weekend. But I can see a problem right now. I have to build up encounters so that the players can generate WP before I hit them with an important encounter. I‘m afraid the flow of the game can’t be as you like but there have been possibilities for the players to generate WP. I think of that as a little bit artificial and strange. But I‘ll see.
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9littlebees
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 10:36

King_Kull wrote:
Good points! I will try to play a playtest round this weekend. But I can see a problem right now. I have to build up encounters so that the players can generate WP before I hit them with an important encounter. I‘m afraid the flow of the game can’t be as you like but there have been possibilities for the players to generate WP. I think of that as a little bit artificial and strange. But I‘ll see.

What makes this so artifical? Just build a normal encounter and see how it plays out.

I suspect you save the big fights for the climax of a session anyway, why would this be any different?
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King_Kull
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 11:54

9littlebees wrote:
King_Kull wrote:
Good points! I will try to play a playtest round this weekend. But I can see a problem right now. I have to build up encounters so that the players can generate WP before I hit them with an important encounter. I‘m afraid the flow of the game can’t be as you like but there have been possibilities for the players to generate WP. I think of that as a little bit artificial and strange. But I‘ll see.

What makes this so artifical? Just build a normal encounter and see how it plays out.

I suspect you save the big fights for the climax of a session anyway, why would this be any different?

I start sometimes with a bang. And I take the adventure where it will flow with the decision of the players. And therefore I don't really know what will happen next. And by artificial I mean that I have to steer the session a little bit more than I would like and don't let the action of the player characters dictate what will happen next. This is what I mean when I write about natural ;)
And it seems to me that you have to build up your WP to be successful in a tough encounter. So you have to be careful in the adventure design. But I will try it this weekend perhaps I will be surprised ;)
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 11:59

King_Kull wrote:
9littlebees wrote:
King_Kull wrote:
Good points! I will try to play a playtest round this weekend. But I can see a problem right now. I have to build up encounters so that the players can generate WP before I hit them with an important encounter. I‘m afraid the flow of the game can’t be as you like but there have been possibilities for the players to generate WP. I think of that as a little bit artificial and strange. But I‘ll see.

What makes this so artifical? Just build a normal encounter and see how it plays out.

I suspect you save the big fights for the climax of a session anyway, why would this be any different?

I start sometimes with a bang. And I take the adventure where it will flow with the decision of the players. And therefore I don't really know what will happen next. And by artificial I mean that I have to steer the session a little bit more than I would like and don't let the action of the player characters dictate what will happen next. This is what I mean when I write about natural ;)
And it seems to me that you have to build up your WP to be successful in a tough encounter. So you have to be careful in the adventure design. But I will try it this weekend perhaps I will be surprised ;)

But the WP carries over to the following sessions, doesn't it?  So this would only potentially be an issue for the first session of a campaign.  But that should be fine, as the characters need to get used to their characters and the mechanics, and should come to respect the scarcity of WP.
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King_Kull
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 12:19

9littlebees wrote:
King_Kull wrote:
9littlebees wrote:
What makes this so artifical? Just build a normal encounter and see how it plays out.

I suspect you save the big fights for the climax of a session anyway, why would this be any different?

I start sometimes with a bang. And I take the adventure where it will flow with the decision of the players. And therefore I don't really know what will happen next. And by artificial I mean that I have to steer the session a little bit more than I would like and don't let the action of the player characters dictate what will happen next. This is what I mean when I write about natural ;)
And it seems to me that you have to build up your WP to be successful in a tough encounter. So you have to be careful in the adventure design. But I will try it this weekend perhaps I will be surprised ;)

But the WP carries over to the following sessions, doesn't it?  So this would only potentially be an issue for the first session of a campaign.  But that should be fine, as the characters need to get used to their characters and the mechanics, and should come to respect the scarcity of WP.

You're correct, perhaps my concerns isn't justified. I think my worries are created by the way of WP generation. It's absolutely my fault that I don't like it, I know it. It's just not my taste. As Fragpuss said it's more natural to me that I award WP rather than players push their characters to get WP. And therefore they become crippled that is something that I have in the back of my mind. It's not only the spellbinders but other characters would like to use their WP talents. And when they get WP their characters get worse because they have misery. I hope that it will be good to play as RAW but as you hacked MY0 I think I will change WP in my campaign if it doesn't fit my campaign.
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AndersP
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 13:23

King_Kull wrote:
9littlebees wrote:
King_Kull wrote:
Good points! I will try to play a playtest round this weekend. But I can see a problem right now. I have to build up encounters so that the players can generate WP before I hit them with an important encounter. I‘m afraid the flow of the game can’t be as you like but there have been possibilities for the players to generate WP. I think of that as a little bit artificial and strange. But I‘ll see.

What makes this so artifical? Just build a normal encounter and see how it plays out.

I suspect you save the big fights for the climax of a session anyway, why would this be any different?

I start sometimes with a bang. And I take the adventure where it will flow with the decision of the players. And therefore I don't really know what will happen next. And by artificial I mean that I have to steer the session a little bit more than I would like and don't let the action of the player characters dictate what will happen next. This is what I mean when I write about natural ;)
And it seems to me that you have to build up your WP to be successful in a tough encounter. So you have to be careful in the adventure design. But I will try it this weekend perhaps I will be surprised ;)

When traveling through the country they will have smaller random encounters which will give them the chance to get willpower (not just through battle, but by trying to get food, set up camp or haggling with a merchant). So you don't have to steer them to smaller adventures, these will pop up here and there on the way to the adventure sites.

When I tried the alpha the first time, they met some skeletons and a griffin in two different battles which gave them some chances to get WP in battles. Since it is quite easy to heal all the misery it isn't to awful to get some misery either as long as you have a warm place to sleep with companions and food.

And if they don't have enough WP for the Big Bad Boss they will either have to flee or use other skills/talents.
 
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King_Kull
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 13:43

Fleeing is a good solution sometimes ;)
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 13:44

King_Kull wrote:
Fleeing is a good solution sometimes ;)

Spoken like a good WFRP fan! :-)
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King_Kull
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 13:45

9littlebees wrote:
King_Kull wrote:
Fleeing is a good solution sometimes ;)

Spoken like a good WFRP fan! :-)


:)
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Jurij 1138
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Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 13:59

King_Kull wrote:
Fleeing is a good solution sometimes ;)

That's what my players (who have played BRP systems since the mid 80's) came to realise when we played MY0. ;)
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