• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
User avatar
Fenhorn
Posts: 823
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Mariestad (Sverige, Tellus)

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 23:03

wizoroc wrote:
Fenhorn wrote:
You must have missed that in MYZ and in FBL (and every game by FL) a failed skill roll have consequences.

Nope, we got that...and use that. But it is still more desirable for players to often take the failed roll consequence than the harsher push roll consequence. In MYZ, they will at least get a mutation point per mutation each session...so they get to use those without earning them on a push. I can see why they do this, and why this is such a hot issue on this thread. Would I want to use my hard earned WP to spend just so my animal can scout for me? Probably not. Would I use it if I got a couple free WP per session? Well, it is more tolerable at that point.

You must be a whole lot nicer than I am. I may be harsh (I do follow the rules and recommendations), my group have, in MYZ, a good flow of MP and so far in FBL, a good flow of WP. I don't see MP and WP as something "hard earned". They come easy and go easy, but again if the skill rolls doesn't matter that much for the player so they feel that they need to push, then of course MP/WP are "hard earned".
"War, war never changes" - Lone Wanderer
 
User avatar
Tomas
Site Admin
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri 08 Apr 2011, 11:31

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 23:22

Hello!

As the question of magic and Willpower Points has come up before, I'll to copy in my previous response here as I think it explains the design philosophy behind the system quite well:

Tomas wrote:
I will explain the design philosophy behind the rules and how they are meant to play out. Firstly, there are a few common problems with magic that I have experienced in other games that we want to solve in Forbidden Lands:
  1. Magic users are pretty much useless at everything except magic. That makes playing a magic user quite limiting.
  2. Starting magic users are generally quite bad at magic too. This means that they need to spend all their XP on getting better at magic, compounding problem #1 above.
  3. When the magic users have risen in skill/level, they instead become overpowered.
  4. The most important one. To limit the use of magic, many systems have a finite number of mana point or similar to spend, or a system where you build up "corruption" or something by using magic, causing negative effects. The problem with these systems is that they, a little simplified, mean that a magic user can use magic in the beginning of a scenario/session, but not at the end (at which time the mana is gone or the corruption has increased too much). This creates a suboptimal dramatic arc - we want to unleash the awesome spells at the final boss fight, not in the first encounter!
So, with this in mind, this is how magic works in Forbidden Lands:
  • Magic users (sorcerers and druids) can be almost as good as the other professions at non-magical skills, such as swordplay. We want fights to be like in the LotR, where Gandalf swings his sword with skill and saves his magic for it's really needed.
  • Even starting magic users can cast powerful spells.
  • Our way of limiting the use of magic turns problem 4 above around - in order to use magic, you must first use other skills, to build up your Willpower Points. This comes naturally during the flow of the game, as magic users can be quite skilled at other activities too. You will never need to "force" your players to make skill rolls to collect WP, it's a dynamic and natural flow in the game.

So. We know that the magic system in Forbidden Lands doesn't work the in way you are used to from other games. But that doesn't mean its broken - it's a result of very conscious design decisions. This doesn't mean it's perfect in every detail - feedback is welcome - but, again - we would ask you to actually try the system out before discarding it. :)
Fria Ligan
 
User avatar
Erzaad
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu 01 Dec 2016, 22:54
Location: Ohio

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 23:34

Thanks for reposting that comment, Tomas. I hadn't seen it before and it addressed some of the concerns I had. Quick question though: is the official English name for the mage "Spellbinder" or "Sorcerer"?
 
User avatar
Tomas
Site Admin
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri 08 Apr 2011, 11:31

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 23:38

Erzaad wrote:
Thanks for reposting that comment, Tomas. I hadn't seen it before and it addressed some of the concerns I had. Quick question though: is the official English name for the mage "Spellbinder" or "Sorcerer"?

It will be Sorcerer. It was Spellbinder in an earlier draft, and that term remains in Chapter 2 of the Alpha, but it will be Sorcerer in the final game.
Fria Ligan
 
User avatar
Erzaad
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu 01 Dec 2016, 22:54
Location: Ohio

Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 00:00

Will there be more spells in the final version, or is the alpha pdf a complete list? 
 
wizoroc
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu 08 Feb 2018, 19:30

Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 00:20

Tomas wrote:
Erzaad wrote:
Thanks for reposting that comment, Tomas. I hadn't seen it before and it addressed some of the concerns I had. Quick question though: is the official English name for the mage "Spellbinder" or "Sorcerer"?

It will be Sorcerer. It was Spellbinder in an earlier draft, and that term remains in Chapter 2 of the Alpha, but it will be Sorcerer in the final game.

Dang!  Spellbinder was such a cool name that differentiated it from all the other games out there that generically use sorcerer.  May be too late... for those of us who have been playing this for weeks now and are attached...we may need to still call it "Spellbinder" in our games.  :-)
 
lupex
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:16

Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 00:28

wizoroc wrote:
Tomas wrote:
Erzaad wrote:
Thanks for reposting that comment, Tomas. I hadn't seen it before and it addressed some of the concerns I had. Quick question though: is the official English name for the mage "Spellbinder" or "Sorcerer"?

It will be Sorcerer. It was Spellbinder in an earlier draft, and that term remains in Chapter 2 of the Alpha, but it will be Sorcerer in the final game.

Dang!  Spellbinder was such a cool name that differentiated it from all the other games out there that generically use sorcerer.  May be too late... for those of us who have been playing this for weeks now and are attached...we may need to still call it "Spellbinder" in our games.  :-)


+1 for spellbinder, it adds nice flavour to make the setting just a bit different.
 
User avatar
King_Kull
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed 22 Feb 2017, 16:11

Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 01:24

Spellbinder is by far cooler than sorcerer!

But I‘m still not convinced of the WP generating system. I have the feeling that most of the time the characters are crippled by misery because they‘re trying to generate WP by pushing rolls. Hm, I will have to try it out ;)
I am king!
 
Calagnar
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun 15 Oct 2017, 07:36

Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 02:05

+1 for Spellbinder
 
User avatar
Fragpuss
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun 23 Jul 2017, 14:02

Re: The problem with Magic

Fri 09 Feb 2018, 02:05

Tomas wrote:
So. We know that the magic system in Forbidden Lands doesn't work the in way you are used to from other games. But that doesn't mean its broken - it's a result of very conscious design decisions. This doesn't mean it's perfect in every detail - feedback is welcome - but, again - we would ask you to actually try the system out before discarding it. :)


I don't think 'broken' is the word I would use. I completely agree with the effect that you want to achieve - a limited supply of WP that builds up during the course of a session and that makes magic and other powerful talents features of climactic encounters. Based on the few playtest reports that I've seen on here, it sounds like it's generating the sort of flow of points that you had in mind, so in that sense, it's clearly not broken.

My concern comes from the rationale behind linking WP and Misery and the need to sustain harm before you can power your talents - as I said in my earlier post, in my opinion, exhausting yourself to cast a spell makes sense, exhausting yourself through mundane activities in order to generate the power to cast a spell doesn't - I just find that mechanism too contrived.

If WP were generated for something positive that would make more sense to me - maybe decouple it from the banes / misery outcome and just give one (and only one) WP for pushing a roll (maybe even require at least n successes), so the WP come from inspiration /exerting yourself, but there is still the element of risk to stop people abusing the system and pushing every roll. Alternatively, you could have talents / spells cost attribute points directly, but there's no mechanism to increase attributes - so that might be too limiting.

TLDR? - I don't think the model is wrong, but I do think it isn't modelling the right system.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
GZIP: Off