• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
User avatar
King_Kull
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed 22 Feb 2017, 16:11

Re: The problem with Magic

Wed 07 Feb 2018, 19:20

Erzaad wrote:
Well, it could have been based on the number of talents. I didn't review the alpha too closely yet.


No free WP so far in FbL.
I am king!
 
User avatar
Fragpuss
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun 23 Jul 2017, 14:02

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 15:29

I think this is still the bit of the system that worries me most. Generating WP isn't really a 'risk and reward' thing because it's not rewarding risk, you actually have to suffer harm to get the WP. 

I have visions of the game slowing to a crawl when a character pushes a roll, breaks himself and then the party has to stop for an unscheduled rest while he recovers. And if he breaks his sword in the process, then it's off to the nearest town to find a smith / buy a replacement.

I get that it's a survival game at heart and the setting has that grim edge. But this and some of the other mechanics, like a point of damage from a fish hook if you fail your fishing roll (that's one hell of a big hook) feel like the players are getting hosed at every turn.

I still like the idea of generating WP from inspiration (surplus successes) - as far as I can see all the FL games are similar, but have their own unique features - I understand FbL is channeling the spirit of MYO, but for me, this would be a great opportunity to differentiate the systems.
 
User avatar
9littlebees
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat 18 Feb 2017, 14:22
Location: Rural Germany
Contact:

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 15:45

Fragpuss wrote:
I get that it's a survival game at heart and the setting has that grim edge. But this and some of the other mechanics, like a point of damage from a fish hook if you fail your fishing roll (that's one hell of a big hook) feel like the players are getting hosed at every turn.

+1 to this.  The biggest thing driving me to develop my own hack rather than using FBL is that the MYZ trauma rules seem out of place here.  In MYZ, you are playing mostly frail humans like us who happen to have access to these awesome powers.  FBL is fantasy, and while I love gritty and dangerous games, I think the MYZ trauma system is just too severe.

And while Coriolis seems to have the perfect trauma system to port over to the fantasy genre, I think it is just a bit too forgiving, since pushing rolls doesn't generate any kind of stress.  

So in my mind there is a happy medium between these two systems which would perfectly suit a gritty fantasy game.

All that said, I'm still very excited about this game and still intend to playtest it with my groups.

OK, that was massively off-topic...

Fragpuss wrote:
I have visions of the game slowing to a crawl when a character pushes a roll, breaks himself and then the party has to stop for an unscheduled rest while he recovers. And if he breaks his sword in the process, then it's off to the nearest town to find a smith / buy a replacement.

I think you'll find players stop pushing their characters once they risk breaking themselves or their weapons.  At least, that was my experience of MYZ.  Play didn't slow down, but players did lay off pushing their rolls.
I'm an English game designer working on Nordsaga, a career-focused dark Viking game, powered by the Year Zero engine: https://9littlebees.com
 
The1TrueFredrix
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri 12 Aug 2016, 16:36
Contact:

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 16:27

I want to play test. I thought I read somewhere that every pushed roll earned you one WP, in the alpha only ones on BASE dice, (not weapon dice) earn you a WP point. Is that enough willpower, especially for spellbinders? I don’t know. It means spellbinders will likely be fatigued a lot, which fits story tropes. It FEELS right, but will players feel disempowered? ONly one one way to find out ... play test next Wednesday!
The Coriolis Effect - a fan podcast about Fria Ligan's Zero Engine games, featuring discussion of the rules and ideas to expand the setting of the Third Horizon and well as Actual Play episodes. http://feeds.feedburner.com/fictionsuit/tCE
 
User avatar
Fragpuss
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun 23 Jul 2017, 14:02

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 17:24

The1TrueFredrix wrote:
It means spellbinders will likely be fatigued a lot, which fits story tropes. It FEELS right, but will players feel disempowered?

To my mind it would fit the tropes if spell casters were fatigued by casting spells, but in this case characters are actually fatigued by generating Willpower Points before they can even use their powers, not by using them. That seems bassackwards to me.
It may be that in MY0 the rationale for the mechanic is more strongly wedded to the setting, but as described here, it just feels perverse and artificial. I'm picturing telling my players that they can't use their talents until they've done themselves a mischief and I don't think they'll buy it any more than I do.
Unfortunately, I'm limited in my ability to run a playtest at the moment, so I'm really looking forward to hearing how yours goes...
 
User avatar
King_Kull
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed 22 Feb 2017, 16:11

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 17:52

I would really like to see a WP generating system for FbL. A system that is useful for a fantasy setting. I really have to agree that it’s quite understandable that a caster gets fatigued after casting a spell. Or in this regard after a character uses a talent. But you have to harm yourself before you get a chance to do something awesome. I really like the Coriolis system better where you give the GM Dark Points that he can use against the players. And the hp system from Coriolis is more to my taste too. But I can live with the damage system of FbL but I really hope that there will be a fresh system for WP and not a MY0 clone.
I am king!
 
wizoroc
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu 08 Feb 2018, 19:30

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 19:47

I agree with the concern generating WP, and it is not just linked magic. Talents take WP to trigger, and considering how rough it is on the character to generate WP points, it may not be a worthy trade off for the misery to trigger some talents. (Do I want my character to take misery just to have my animal scout for me?)

I am excited for this game, and I love all of their games so far. I have GMed mutiple games in MYZ, Tales, and Genlab Alpha. Players just don't push roles all that much (except in showdowns). The players would often rather fail a role than take the consequences of pushing. So I am worried that if that holds true for Forbidden Lands, we won't see talents and spells utilized as much. Even if they do push the rolls, I don't expect they will do it multiple times in the game to get multiple WP. In Mutant, they usually just use mutation points that are gained with each session.

Of course, this is easy to house rule, stating that, similar to MYZ, players generate WP points equal to their talents or some other factor. But I am hoping the final rules includes something along these lines.
 
User avatar
Fenhorn
Posts: 886
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Mariestad (Sverige, Tellus)

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 20:24

wizoroc wrote:
<> The players would often rather fail a role than take the consequences of pushing. <>

You must have missed that in MYZ and in FBL (and every game by FL) a failed skill roll have consequences. A failed Lead the Way roll means a mishap. A failed Make a Camp roll means, besides no camp (cold night and possible also no or bad sleep) and a mishap. A failed scout could mean a surprise attack on the group. In a game where there is one dice roll that matter (not roll until you succeed) I will wish players that thinks that failed skill rolls is a good option, some really good luck or a very nice GM.

In my two testsessions, my players had 1-5 WP most of the time. We had a dwarven fighter in the group that had a lot of WP sometimes (and none a little bit later), but he was a little bit of a gambler when it comes to pushes. A habit that almost cost him his life several times. My group have played MYZ a lot so my players know that a failed skill roll is usually worse than taking a trauma (or misery in FBL) every now and then. Most of the time, it is fairly easy to heal up. Or to put it in FBL journey terms. If you have misery you will usually heal that up after a good night sleep and some food and water but if you decide that that Make a Camp roll is not that important, then everyone will be cold and there is a high risk that no one will have any sleep.
“I’d say thistles, but nobody listens to me, anyway.” - Eeyore
 
The1TrueFredrix
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri 12 Aug 2016, 16:36
Contact:

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 20:54

Fenhorn wrote:
In my two testsessions, my players had 1-5 WP most of the time. We had a dwarven fighter in the group that had a lot of WP sometimes (and none a little bit later), but he was a little bit of a gambler when it comes to pushes. A habit that almost cost him his life several times. My group have played MYZ a lot so my players know that a failed skill roll is usually worse than taking a trauma (or misery in FBL) every now and then. Most of the time, it is fairly easy to heal up. Or to put it in FBL journey terms. If you have misery you will usually heal that up after a good night sleep and some food and water but if you decide that that Make a Camp roll is not that important, then everyone will be cold and there is a high risk that no one will have any sleep.

Good feedback from your test sessions. I at least am reassured. Though obviously, I’ll test it myself next week. 
The Coriolis Effect - a fan podcast about Fria Ligan's Zero Engine games, featuring discussion of the rules and ideas to expand the setting of the Third Horizon and well as Actual Play episodes. http://feeds.feedburner.com/fictionsuit/tCE
 
wizoroc
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu 08 Feb 2018, 19:30

Re: The problem with Magic

Thu 08 Feb 2018, 21:29

Fenhorn wrote:
You must have missed that in MYZ and in FBL (and every game by FL) a failed skill roll have consequences.

Nope, we got that...and use that. But it is still more desirable for players to often take the failed roll consequence than the harsher push roll consequence. In MYZ, they will at least get a mutation point per mutation each session...so they get to use those without earning them on a push. I can see why they do this, and why this is such a hot issue on this thread. Would I want to use my hard earned WP to spend just so my animal can scout for me? Probably not. Would I use it if I got a couple free WP per session? Well, it is more tolerable at that point.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
GZIP: Off